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Topic: calculation puzzle (Read 3861 times) |
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #13 on: Dec 30th, 2015, 2:35pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 1:49pm, pnlawrence wrote:| Anatoly, you are a moderator on the LB forum. Why don't you get this resolved. |
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As I have said before, I was told that the moderators had voted to lift the restrictions on my membership, and to allow discussion of LBB there, but that the decision had been vetoed by Carl. If that's the case, Anatoly can't do anything about it.
Precisely why Carl was allowed a veto is another matter. As far as I am aware he has no formal administrative role at the LB forum (it's supposed to be a 'community' forum, unlike the LB Yahoo Group which is Carl's official support outlet to do with whatever he likes).
Richard.
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AAW
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #14 on: Dec 30th, 2015, 6:18pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 1:49pm, pnlawrence wrote:Anatoly, you are a moderator on the LB forum. Why don't you get this resolved.
Clearly there is a vendetta against a major contributor to the BASIC community.
It is terribly embarrassing. |
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Richard was placed on moderation at the official Yahoo Group many years ago.
He was first banned at the Community Forum in May, 2011. These events happened long before he ever conceived of LBB.
on Dec 29th, 2015, 5:34pm, Richard Russell wrote: But that is not enough for the LB forum administrators; they don't want me to be able to see anything!
To achieve that I am banned by IP address,
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That is not correct. The cause/effect are reversed. You are banned by IP, therefore you cannot see anything.
on Dec 30th, 2015, 2:35pm, Richard Russell wrote:Precisely why Carl was allowed a veto is another matter. As far as I am aware he has no formal administrative role at the LB forum
Richard.
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As I have said before. Carl has been co-owner of the Community
forum since Day 1. Since Day 1, he has had complete access to the main admin account. The forum was conceived to be run by Carl and the community. Carl does perform functions as the main admin/owner.
It is a pity that things have not worked out. Carl and Richard have different points of view and different ways of expressing them.
The best thing for the community is to simply write and discuss code, coding techniques, theories, etc. Grow as programmers. Enjoy what you do. Use the tools that suit you best. Acrimony is not productive.
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #15 on: Dec 30th, 2015, 9:56pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 6:18pm, AAW wrote:| These events happened long before he ever conceived of LBB. |
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Untrue. LBB v0.00 - I still have a copy - is dated July 2011, and it existed in the earlier guise of LB2BBC (adapted from the even earlier QB2BBC) well before that.
Quote:| That is not correct. The cause/effect are reversed. You are banned by IP, therefore you cannot see anything. |
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So perhaps you can explain what banning me by IP address achieves other than to stop me reading the LB forum.
Quote:| As I have said before. Carl has been co-owner of the Community forum since Day 1. |
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I'm not aware of you ever having said that before. If it's the case you should stop pretending that the forum is run in the interests of the 'community' when it is not.
Quote:| Acrimony is not productive. |
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That works both ways!
Please don't abuse the privilege of being allowed to post in this forum by using it as a platform to suggest that I am in the wrong and you are in the right, when you know very well that it is not the case.
Richard.
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AAW
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #16 on: Dec 30th, 2015, 11:06pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 9:56pm, Richard Russell wrote:acrimony
That works both ways!
Richard.
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My last paragraph was not directed at you, Richard. It was directed at pnlawrence.
Quote:| The best thing for the community is to simply write and discuss code, coding techniques, theories, etc. Grow as programmers. Enjoy what you do. Use the tools that suit you best. Acrimony is not productive. |
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I could respond to your other questions and comments, but will not do so, since it might be seen as an attempt to use your forum to "abuse the privilege of being allowed to post in this forum by using it as a platform to suggest that I am in the wrong and you are in the right"
I also apologize to bluatigro for participating in the highjacking of his puzzle thread.
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #17 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 12:35am » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 11:06pm, AAW wrote:| I could respond to your other questions and comments, but will not do so |
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In that case I formally request that the IP-address ban against me be lifted.
Richard.
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Chris Iverson
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #18 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 01:10am » |
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on Dec 30th, 2015, 9:56pm, Richard Russell wrote:| Untrue. LBB v0.00 - I still have a copy - is dated July 2011, and it existed in the earlier guise of LB2BBC (adapted from the even earlier QB2BBC) well before that. |
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Forgive me, but I fail to see how July is earlier than May.
on Dec 30th, 2015, 9:56pm, Richard Russell wrote:| So perhaps you can explain what banning me by IP address achieves other than to stop me reading the LB forum. |
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It prevents you from creating a new account at the LB Conforums to continue to violate our rules, as you have done so in the past. Administrators of any forum, not just the LB Conforums, rather frown on someone creating a new account when their first one is banned for breaking the rules, only to turn around and continue to do so!
You were IP banned after you repeatedly continued to use the PM system to break our rules, even after bans.
on Dec 30th, 2015, 9:56pm, Richard Russell wrote:| I'm not aware of you ever having said that before. If it's the case you should stop pretending that the forum is run in the interests of the 'community' when it is not. |
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The administrators of a website have the right to dictate policy on that website. Am I wrong?
We are a support community for those using Liberty BASIC. That is, the trademarked, official IDE developed by Shoptalk Systems, found at libertybasic.com.
We will gladly help anyone looking for assistance or to learn LB, and we have had many people over the years join the forum, learn from them, and then contribute themselves. You know, kind of like a community.
I would know. I was one of those people. I joined the LB forums ten years ago now. I learned very much. I made mistakes. I was helped by many wonderful people, including yourself!
Then I became knowledgeable enough that I was able to start helping people. Now, ten years later, I am one of the administrators of the forums, and I am quite proud of it.
Additionally, we have never tried to hide or disguise the fact that Carl is an administrator of the forum, and as such, does have major input into the policy decisions of the forum.
For one thing, if he/we wanted to hide that, we wouldn't have his own, personal, clearly named account listed as an Administrator of the forum.
What Alyce said is true: Carl and Richard have differences of opinions that have, so far, been unable to be resolved.
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joker
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #19 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 02:01am » |
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Quote:| ... I learned very much. I made mistakes. I was helped by many wonderful people, including yourself! ... |
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And I've learned very much from Richard, myself.
However, you and your cohorts have kept others from doing the same. All for some sanctimonious argument that has no meaning to the "community" in general.
Get off your high horses and solve this problem. Do it for the good of the "community" that you speak of so often.
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Chris Iverson
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #20 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 02:21am » |
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I'm sorry, but, Richard's actions have made it clear that he refuses to be bound by the rules stated on our forum.
As the administrators, we have the right to make and enforce those rules.
Therefore, we have denied Richard access to the forum.
I was sad to have to ban Richard. But that's how things turned out.
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #21 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 09:04am » |
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on Dec 31st, 2015, 01:10am, Chris Iverson wrote:| Forgive me, but I fail to see how July is earlier than May. |
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Read Alyce's comment and my reply. What she said was untrue.
Quote:| It prevents you from creating a new account at the LB Conforums |
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It does no such thing. I can easily create a new account by connecting from an internet café, a WiFi hotspot, a cellular radio or an anonymising proxy server as I said before. Since doing so is a once-off exercise that is not a significant inconvenience.
Quote:| to continue to violate our rules, as you have done so in the past. |
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The rules have retrospectively been changed to allow you to claim that. For example the rules used to state that promoting a language other than Liberty BASIC is not permitted, but LB Booster is Liberty BASIC so promoting it was not contrary to the rules. But now the rules have been changed to specifically refer to Carl's implementation of the Liberty BASIC language.
I have never, and would never, break the rules as they were stated at the time.
Quote:| Administrators of any forum, not just the LB Conforums, rather frown on someone creating a new account when their first one is banned for breaking the rules, only to turn around and continue to do so! |
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I created new accounts because I had not broken the rules and because I was being prevented from doing exactly what the rules (at the time) encouraged, which was to use Private Messaging instead of posting on 'sensitive' subjects. No attempt was ever made to communicate directly with me, to request that I stop sending PMs, or to explain why my account had been deleted. The forum was, and is still, run in an autocratic way without any attempt to act fairly.
Quote:| You were IP banned after you repeatedly continued to use the PM system to break our rules, even after bans. |
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On the contrary I was using the PM system in accordance with, and as encouraged by, the rules. If you have the old rules archived you will see that they specifically stated that if a particular subject is not allowed to be posted one should use the PM system instead.
Quote:| The administrators of a website have the right to dictate policy on that website. Am I wrong? |
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They can dictate policy, but they should act in a way that benefits the members of the forum. They should also not retrospectively change rules so as to falsely claim they have been broken.
Quote:| We are a support community for those using Liberty BASIC. That is, the trademarked, official IDE developed by Shoptalk Systems, found at libertybasic.com. |
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So it now seems. It would be of much greater benefit to the community if the forum were to support the Liberty BASIC programming language, not just a particular, rather unsatisfactory, implementation.
Quote:| What Alyce said is true: Carl and Richard have differences of opinions that have, so far, been unable to be resolved. |
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Carl himself has never complained about LBB, indeed as you know he has publicly stated that "it is a legitimate artefact" that people should "feel free to use" if it suits their needs.
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #22 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 09:50am » |
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on Dec 31st, 2015, 02:21am, Chris Iverson wrote:| I'm sorry, but, Richard's actions have made it clear that he refuses to be bound by the rules stated on our forum. |
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Please stop repeating the claim that I have broken rules (as constituted at the time); I have not and would not knowingly break forum rules.
Of course, however carefully the rules are framed there can be room for 'interpretation', and it may be that the forum administrators felt that the rules did not accurately reflect what had been intended. But in that event there is a responsible and fair way to proceed: the member who has inadvertently broken the intended 'spirit' of the rules should be contacted and the situation explained. The rules can then be changed, in consultation with the forum membership as a whole since they need to be aware of the proposed changes and how they might be affected.
But that is not how the LB forum administrators reacted. Instead I was banned with no explanation and no attempt having been made to contact me directly. The rules were then changed without the membership being consulted or informed.
The 'issue' has never had anything to do with rules. It is simply that I have created an implementation of the Liberty BASIC language which in most respects is better than Carl's original, something which I would remind you I was entirely entitled to do under the laws governing Intellectual Property Rights (the syntax of a language is not protected, but a particular implementation is).
This has created a perceived conflict between Carl's commercial interests and the best interests of Liberty BASIC users, and to the extent that the LB forum is trying to serve both those interests this is proving difficult to resolve in a way that is fair to all parties.
Richard.
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AAW
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #23 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 10:51am » |
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on Dec 31st, 2015, 12:35am, Richard Russell wrote:AAW wrote: "I could respond to your other questions and comments, but will not do so"
In that case I formally request that the IP-address ban against me be lifted.
Richard.
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When one uses part of a quote, it can be taken out of context. Your quoted version of my words makes it appear that I am stubbornly refusing to answer.
The full quote is:
Quote:| I could respond to your other questions and comments, but will not do so, since it might be seen as an attempt to use your forum to "abuse the privilege of being allowed to post in this forum by using it as a platform to suggest that I am in the wrong and you are in the right" |
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I interpreted this to mean that I was not to post anything that disagreed with you. A conundrum: how could I answer a question you asked when the answer disagreed with you? I was attempting to do as you requested on your forum, and so I felt I should not respond.
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Last winter forum staff received messages and emails from members who had received an email or who had been contacted via the PM system. These messages promoted LBB. The existing forum rules in March, 2015 stated, "This forum exists for the promotion and discussion of the Liberty BASIC language by Carl Gundel. Other programming languages and competing products may not be promoted here."
Our interpretation of "promoted here" included both public and private messages, so we believed that Richard's PMs were in violation of the rules.
As we received these reports, we added Richard's usernames to a forum script that blocked him from sending PMs. At no time did Richard contact any staff members regarding this blockage. Instead, he rejoined with new usernames to get around the block. He admitted this in a public thread later and claimed he was within his rights to do so.
In March, 2015, waybackman started a thread on the community forum. He had received (out of nowhere) an email promoting LBB. Others replied to the thread to say they had also received such an email. For those interested, the thread is "Wondering if email is a scam?" from March, 2015 on the General Board.
Forum staff never envisioned that a competitor would join the forum to use the PM system to promote competing software, so a rule prohibiting that did not exist. In March, we changed the rules to read:
Quote:| No unsolicited emails or mass private messages will ever be sent by the staff. Members should not send unsolicited emails to other members, nor use the private messaging system to circumvent the forum's rules. |
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There are threads in both forums dated March, 2015. I will not repeat them here, but the result was a banning of several of Richard's usernames at that time, and a wildcard ban of new usernames with email addresses from Richard's domain.
On September 9, 2015, I received this message from a member whose name will remain private.
Quote:Hello Alyce
I have received a PM from a new member "rtr" following my recent post on the forum,as follows
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<identifying information about the post redacted> in LB Booster (LBB):
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/lbb/
Richard.
I did not respond via the forum as I'm unwilling to promote LBB, you may wish to restrict the ability of "rtr" to send PM's.
Richard may have a product that offers advantages that LB does not however I believe LBB should find success on it own merits not using underhanded tactics to attract LB users
regards
<member name redacted>
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The new rule barring members from using PMs to subvert the forum's rules had been in place for 6 months, yet Richard used PMs to promote LBB. At this time, the IP ban was enacted.
Regarding the date of LBB's inception, I should have said that the staff had not yet heard of LBB when Richard was banned in May, 2011, not that he hadn't written it yet. I apologize. The point was that the earlier ban had nothing to do with LBB.
And now, since I have disagreed with Richard on his forum and against his wishes, I assume I am no longer welcome here. Richard may continue to communicate with staff who are still welcome here. Chris is an admin and can address the petition to remove the IP ban. If Richard would like to communicate directly with me, he may do so. I will always read his emails and respond politely.
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AAW
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #24 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 11:07am » |
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This message did not exist when I posted my reply above.
on Dec 31st, 2015, 09:50am, Richard Russell wrote:| Please stop repeating the claim that I have broken rules (as constituted at the time); I have not and would not knowingly break forum rules. |
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In this case, you did. (Perhaps not "knowingly.) The rules were changed on March 14 and a new message stating so was posted to the rules thread to bring attention to that fact. You sent the PM promoting LBB six months later.
Quote:This has created a perceived conflict between Carl's commercial interests and the best interests of Liberty BASIC users, and to the extent that the LB forum is trying to serve both those interests this is proving difficult to resolve in a way that is fair to all parties.
Richard. |
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Indeed.
I apologize for posting again after I wrote that I would not, but it appears we were writing replies at the same time.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 31st, 2015, 11:19am by AAW » |
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #25 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 11:50am » |
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on Dec 31st, 2015, 10:51am, AAW wrote:| I interpreted this to mean that I was not to post anything that disagreed with you. |
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Ridiculous. I am always happy for the truth to be stated, since I have nothing to fear from that.
Quote:| The existing forum rules in March, 2015 stated, "This forum exists for the promotion and discussion of the Liberty BASIC language by Carl Gundel. Other programming languages and competing products may not be promoted here." |
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If it is indeed the case that the rules were changed earlier than I thought I certainly was not aware of that change. I didn't see any announcement to that effect - are you sure I was allowed to view that section of the forum at the time? If it was at a time of high activity at the forum I may well not have bothered to read, or indeed even seen, every message.
Quote:| At no time did Richard contact any staff members regarding this blockage. |
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You are trying to transfer the onus for making contact onto me; that is totally unreasonable. If you were planning to take some action based on a perception that I had broken the rules you should have contacted me.
I would remind you that the 'old' rules (I will give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that they may have already changed without my knowledge) specifically encouraged the use of PMs for discussing topics that were prohibited from being mentioned in forum posts.
Quote:| Forum staff never envisioned that a competitor would join the forum to use the PM system to promote competing software |
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The forum's declared aim is (or was) to support users of the Liberty BASIC Programming Language. LB Booster is not 'competing' software, in fact it is the exact opposite: it was developed to enhance and promote the language by providing an alternative implementation free from many of the bugs and shortcomings of Carl's original.
Quote:| The new rule barring members from using PMs to subvert the forum's rules had been in place for 6 months, yet Richard used PMs to promote LBB. At this time, the IP ban was enacted. |
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So did you contact me to point out the rule change? Did you contact me to ask me to stop sending PMs? Did you contact me to warn me that I might be banned? Did you contact me to ask about the emails I had sent?
No. Not a word. If you assumed that I would knowingly break the rules that is a disgraceful slur on my character. I am a decent, honest and law-abiding individual.
Quote:| The point was that the earlier ban had nothing to do with LBB. |
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So what precisely was it to do with? The only recollection I have of any earlier 'dispute' was as a result of me publishing - and promoting on the LB forum - a utility to create a CHM version of the LB Help files (an invaluable utility that many people use to this day, and one that you subsequently 'copied').
I would make the following proposal to resolve the 'difficulty' once and for all:
Change the focus of the LB 'community' forum to be exactly that, i.e. to support the Liberty BASIC language and its community of users.
Because that is incompatible with having an allegiance to a particular implementation of the language, invite Carl to give up his co-ownership and admin roles at the forum.
Encourage and support open discussion of all implementations of Liberty BASIC, so that users may be aware of the alternatives and what solutions best meet their programming challenges.
Richard.
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net2014
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #26 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 1:32pm » |
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Having been a LB user since version 1.? I can confirm that bugs and anomalies have been allowed to exist for eons, in some cases passing through different versions. And then we have the 10 (?) year saga of LB5. I have grown old waiting for the promised LB5, such that I will not be buying it even if it ever does get released. Similarly with RunBASIC which seems to have been abandoned, despite claims that it is only on hold.
As for providing sound coding solutions rather than workarounds, no one has done more (IMHO) for LB than Richard, the latest one being for sending of UDP messages, as a result of a LB forum request. As far as I can tell, the solution has not been passed on to the OP, unless someone has done it clandestinely.
It is a great sadness that Carl can not accept the user value that Richard adds to LB but I would like to make a suggestion for consideration by both communities. (FWIW)
Carl has a financial interest in LB and Richard states he has no financial interest in LBB, so could Richard if it is possible, arrange for LBB to only be used by registered LB users. That then becomes an added incentive for unregistered users to 'pay up' and make a financial contribution to LB.
Hopefully this long running saga can soon be put to bed and we can continue to benefit from Richards extensive experience. 
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Richard Russell
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Re: calculation puzzle
« Reply #27 on: Dec 31st, 2015, 2:02pm » |
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on Dec 31st, 2015, 1:32pm, net2014 wrote:| could Richard if it is possible, arrange for LBB to only be used by registered LB users. |
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The suggestion has been made before, and my reaction is the same. The only reasonably secure way that LBB could test whether a user is registered for LB4 is for Carl to reveal to me the 'secret' of how registration keys are verified. Unless some clever 'public key' style encryption is used, which seems unlikely, revealing that would almost certainly mean I could create my own valid LB registration keys independently of Carl!
I could try promising that I wouldn't abuse the privilege, but I very much doubt that such an assurance would cut it with Carl (and I wouldn't expect it to, especially with Alyce and Chris telling him what an untrustworthy person I am)! So it seems highly probable that he would not be prepared to release information allowing me to verify an LB registration.
Incidentally, since both the LB User Name and Registration Key are encoded within every TKN file a user creates (using a very weak encryption), anybody so inclined can 'harvest' valid name/key pairs from publicly-accessible TKN files which they could then use to 'register' copies of LB.
So the security is pretty comprehensively broken anyway and if LBB shared the same scheme it would be just as vulnerable.
Richard.
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