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Topic: Banned from the LB Community Forum (Read 7038 times) |
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #30 on: Apr 28th, 2015, 08:54am » |
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I think we should start an online campaign. Honestly, if LBB can call any DLL (and even LB does this!), why on earth is everyone messing around with language like Python and C++! The only reason/s you'd want to learn any other language is if you'd want to create a DLL (Ik C++ can do this, but it's quite complex  ), or code other things (like android/iOS apps, webpages ext.) - stuff which LBB currently can't do.
So at these stupid schools, I hear they're learning... PYTHON!! WHY! LBB is simple, yet very powerful! Perhaps I'm missing something, but Python just seems a bit rubbish, especially compared to LBB...
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tsh73
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #31 on: Apr 28th, 2015, 12:24pm » |
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First, please let this thread rest in peace.
(it's a polite request if you wonder).
If you have different topic - start new thread.
Quote:| I think we should start an online campaign. |
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Go ahead, start, post a link.
Or better yet start a new thread and explain what kind of campaign it would be.
Quote:| Honestly, if LBB can call any DLL (and even LB does this!), why on earth is everyone messing around with language like Python and C++! The only reason/s you'd want to learn any other language is if you'd want to create a DLL (Ik C++ can do this, but it's quite complex ), or code other things (like android/iOS apps, webpages ext.) - stuff which LBB currently can't do. |
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Really, if you do not see a reason, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Quote:| So at these stupid schools, I hear they're learning... PYTHON!! WHY! LBB is simple, yet very powerful! Perhaps I'm missing something, but Python just seems a bit rubbish, especially compared to LBB... |
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>> Python just seems a bit rubbish
I've seen that said many times about BASIC. So what?
New language always seems weird because it's new and alien to you.
Then you master language, you'll see beautiful programs written in that language - and start to tell good code from bad code in that language.
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #32 on: Apr 28th, 2015, 1:05pm » |
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on Apr 28th, 2015, 12:24pm, tsh73 wrote:First, please let this thread rest in peace.
(it's a polite request if you wonder).
If you have different topic - start new thread.
Go ahead, start, post a link.
Or better yet start a new thread and explain what kind of campaign it would be.
Really, if you do not see a reason, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
>> Python just seems a bit rubbish
I've seen that said many times about BASIC. So what?
New language always seems weird because it's new and alien to you.
Then you master language, you'll see beautiful programs written in that language - and start to tell good code from bad code in that language. |
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Well, I was kinda joking about the online campaign thing, but I guess, if you think about it, making LBB products and distributing them is a campaign. It shows what awesome things you can do with the language.
I have a vague concept of python and understand some of it's syntax (for instance, I love it's idea of indentation being code within a function or code within an if statement), but what new does python have to give. In fact, what is a programming language if it doesn't cover/have a purpose. LB and LBB's is to make Windows programming easier (and it certainly taught me how the Windows OS works). C++ is a powerful language which, out of my experience, is great with memory handling and has a more powerful approach than BASIC (and is still growing today, unlike LB  , versions like C++14 and C++16 and wotnot). HTML (although it isn't actually a programming language), CSS, Javascript and Ruby ext. help you with webpages and websites. Java is the mother of OOP in my knowledge. And other, more unpopular languages like GUI4CLI, which works with GUIs really simply (I've seen a programme which executes a file explorer in just 30-50 lines!!), and Assembly, which can manipulate the building blocks of a computer system, and you can make an OS I've heard (although it is a low-level language and not many use it)! And some of the first high-level languages like Fortran (great for mathematicians , and is STILL in use today even though it was designed all way back in 1957!!) and Cobol (a brilliant business language) helped a LOT with the development of all these languages.
Python is good for compatibility, but what's that good if it doesn't bring something new. LB 5.0 is supposed to do this! And any language can have 'compatibility' enhancements. This is my opinion and it's a matter of opinion. BASIC, on it's own (by this I mean versions of BASIC which don't allow you to access DLLs) is a bit rubbish. Take Just BASIC for an example. Without the use of accessing DLLs, or a programming language that isn't powerful enough, it soon grows boring and tiring. I may just be mistaken, but Python, doesn't do this. Please tell me if I'm wrong, because if it actually has something new, and it can do awesome things, then my long speech is worthless. For me, I don't need Python. But for other's, it built their coding lives.
Well I just looked up a bit more about it, and yeah it can call DLLs I think, but hasn't all this been done before  ? And many people and schools are learning Python, there must be something great about it that I'm missing. And if all that's good about it is that it's modern (for it seems to me a modern copy of BASIC), then why can't BASIC be just as good! BASIC was very popular back then, was that just because it was modern? No, it brought something new!
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| « Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2015, 1:18pm by datwill » |
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #33 on: May 2nd, 2015, 8:21pm » |
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In fact, forget I asked for the code - I think it will be both too daunting and distracting from other projects I'm working on
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| « Last Edit: May 2nd, 2015, 8:22pm by datwill » |
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #34 on: May 3rd, 2015, 09:40am » |
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on May 2nd, 2015, 8:21pm, Daniel Atwill wrote:| In fact, forget I asked for the code - I think it will be both too daunting and distracting from other projects I'm working on |
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I suggested some while ago that I might be prepared to release the source of the LBB IDE. As I explained then, there are a couple of sections of the program which would need to be 'redacted':
The TKN decoder. I don't think Carl would be too happy for the source of that to be released, even though TKNs are easy enough to reverse-engineer from scratch.
The code which creates a standalone executable. Releasing the source of that would reveal the details of the encryption used, damaging the security of everybody's compiled EXEs.
But the rest of the LBB IDE could be released, in principle. It's all fairly straightforward BASIC code (except for the syntax colouring added in v3.00, which is assembler).
Richard.
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #35 on: May 3rd, 2015, 3:13pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2015, 09:40am, Richard Russell wrote:I suggested some while ago that I might be prepared to release the source of the LBB IDE. As I explained then, there are a couple of sections of the program which would need to be 'redacted':
The TKN decoder. I don't think Carl would be too happy for the source of that to be released, even though TKNs are easy enough to reverse-engineer from scratch.
The code which creates a standalone executable. Releasing the source of that would reveal the details of the encryption used, damaging the security of everybody's compiled EXEs.
But the rest of the LBB IDE could be released, in principle. It's all fairly straightforward BASIC code (except for the syntax colouring added in v3.00, which is assembler).
Richard.
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This is understandable and am glad you thought about this before releasing all the code! How do you learn about the .exe things though if it's so secret?
Richard: "Well, if I told you that, I'm afraid I'd have to kill you."
Daniel: 
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| « Last Edit: May 3rd, 2015, 3:16pm by datwill » |
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Alincon
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #36 on: May 3rd, 2015, 6:02pm » |
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I don't think LBB IDE source code s/b released to public domain.
Some idiots will make minor changes, or no changes, and try to sell it .
Inevitably some users will blame Richard for corrupted versions of his very fine work.
Please hang on a while longer, Richard.
rm.m
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #37 on: May 3rd, 2015, 8:03pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2015, 6:02pm, Alincon wrote:I don't think LBB IDE source code s/b released to public domain.
Some idiots will make minor changes, or no changes, and try to sell it .
Inevitably some users will blame Richard for corrupted versions of his very fine work.
Please hang on a while longer, Richard.
rm.m |
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Aye.
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datwill
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #38 on: May 4th, 2015, 7:54pm » |
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Can someone lead me to the proof of this banning?
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tsh73
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #39 on: May 5th, 2015, 07:29am » |
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Richard,
I may be wrong,
Quote:The code which creates a standalone executable. Releasing the source of that would reveal the details of the encryption used, damaging the security of everybody's compiled EXEs.
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does this issue arise because LBB EXE contains BASIC source in some encripted form?
Then you probably could use some no-brainer encription for open source version.
Like XOR.
Obsfucated enough so one peeking through EXE did not see obvious BASIC source, but that's it - no pretense for being "secure".(as it is said, "Locks keep honest folks from mischief").
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #40 on: May 5th, 2015, 08:25am » |
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on May 5th, 2015, 07:29am, tsh73 wrote:| does this issue arise because LBB EXE contains BASIC source in some encripted form? |
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It contains a tokenised/crunched and encrypted version of the translation into BBC BASIC.
Quote:| Then you probably could use some no-brainer encription for open source version. Like XOR. |
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I don't have that option because LBB programs are executed using the standard BBC BASIC run-time engine, which performs the decryption. I could choose to use no encryption at all, but not XOR.
It would perhaps be OK for an Open Source version of LBB to create unencrypted executables, because the translation into BBC BASIC and the tokenising/crunching operations provide a degree of obfuscation (exactly the same as you get if you create a .LBB file and execute it using LBBRUN.EXE).
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #41 on: May 15th, 2015, 2:30pm » |
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Somebody has posted a diatribe on the LB Community Forum (sorry, I am unable to link to it), knowing perfectly well that because I am banned I cannot respond. I will therefore reply here instead:
Quote:| Richard ... basically broke the rules on this forum |
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I vehemently deny that I broke any forum rules (certainly not the rules at the time; they have been changed since). I notice that the OP doesn't say which rule(s) he claims I broke.
Quote:| I could, like Richard, pose as a different person on his forum. |
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I never once posted to the LB forum "as a different person". In fact I never posted to the LB forum at all subsequent to leaving at the beginning of 2014.
Quote:| But that is deception - which is totally WRONG. |
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There was never any deception. I did PM other users using alias accounts, but I always used my real name in those messages.
Quote:| LBB is a TOTALLY different language |
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Of course it's not. How would a "totally different language" be able to run something like 99% of programs without any modification? LB 4.04 and LBB have as much in common as Visual C does with GNU C, or as Turbo Pascal has with GNU Pascal. Nobody would say they are 'different languages'.
Quote:| LBB uses BBC BASIC code while LB doesn't translate to another high-level language at all. |
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The LB 4.04 IDE and interpreter are written in the high-level language SmallTalk, so how is that significantly different?
Quote:| I just want to know why Richard just gave up so suddenly. |
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Suddenly? I first announced my intention to 'wind down' LBB in February 2014 and I finally announced that it was discontinued in March 2015; I don't think a little over a year should count as "sudden"!
As for why, I have always made it clear that I see an association between the time and effort needed to develop LBB (which is considerable) and the potential user-base who can benefit from it. The reason for the wind-down and eventual discontinuing of LBB was because of the effective way in which I was blocked from promoting it to the wider LB user community. Even now the number of LBB users is tiny, and most LB users have never heard of it.
I have various calls on my time, and I do not think it is appropriate to put a lot of effort into developing a language which has so few current and potential users.
Richard.
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RNBW
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #42 on: May 15th, 2015, 3:44pm » |
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Quote:
I notice that the OP doesn't say which rule(s) he claims I broke.
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Just for the record. Alyce Watson directed the writer to the first rule having been broken.
Also the message and the response have been removed from the board.
My feeling is that breaking that rule is a bit tenuous. LBB is pretty much the same as a library being written for a language, which must be included for the relevant code to work. The writer of the library will make reference to the library whenever it is used to write relevant code. I don't believe that Richard has done anything different.
Ray
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AAW
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #43 on: May 15th, 2015, 3:52pm » |
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on May 15th, 2015, 3:44pm, RNBW wrote:Just for the record. Alyce Watson directed the writer to the first rule having been broken.
Also the message and the response have been removed from the board.
My feeling is that breaking that rule is a bit tenuous. LBB is pretty much the same as a library being written for a language, which must be included for the relevant code to work. The writer of the library will make reference to the library whenever it is used to write relevant code. I don't believe that Richard has done anything different.
Ray |
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And further for the record, I will include my response to Daniel. I did NOT speak to anything regarding Richard. I was telling Daniel that he(Daniel) should not be discussing other languages in depth. If I am to be quoted, I'd like it to be exact quotes.
Quote:Please read all of these Rules with special attention to the first one.
Please keep in mind that we don't condone the trashing of other people. That includes Richard.
Do not assume that Carl is ignoring the development of LB when updates are slow to arrive. People have complicated lives. I do not know what is happening in Carl's life, but people in general must deal with medical problems and emergencies for themselves and their families, disasters, accidents, financial problems... the list goes on and on and on. If Carl is late with an update, assume he is unable to work on it, not that he doesn't care. Carl cares passionately about this language he created in 1992.
Also, and this is really important, do not speculate as to motives and actions of other people. You will often be wrong. Others will take your speculations as facts and you could hurt people. Kindness never goes amiss.
Can we let this rest, now? |
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And I removed the message to be fair (and I hope kind) to Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Banned from the LB Community Forum
« Reply #44 on: May 15th, 2015, 4:03pm » |
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on May 15th, 2015, 3:44pm, RNBW wrote:| Just for the record. Alyce Watson directed the writer to the first rule having been broken. |
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I take it that you are referring to "This forum exists for the promotion and discussion of the Liberty BASIC language by Carl Gundel. Other programming languages and competing products may not be promoted here." At the time of any claimed 'violation' the clauses "by Carl Gundel" and "and competing products" were not present; they were added more recently to cover LBB.
Presently, as I understand it, LBB may be mentioned at the LB Community Forum but may not be promoted. As that's a somewhat tricky distinction to make, there was a clarification that a response such as "LBB provides an alternative solution" (with a link to this forum) is permitted.
Richard.
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